Confined space

[concretejoe]

I have been "elected" to the safety comitee at work and we are trying to come up with a plan for extracating an injured man from a drum. Anybody out there willing to share any procedures their company have come up with?

[gant]

I'm an EMT as well as a driver lol and what I think would work is a C Collar to to assist with C SPine and use a KED or Kendrick extraction device.. it imobilizes the spine and neck..and then you can get a few guys to help get the person out.




when i get more time later i will post some pics of it in action from my EMT class

[BillyCement]

We have no standard procedures in place at this time. But, I think some "pre-planning" could certainly help. In NJ the law says that if someone is working in a confined space there needs to be two means of egress. So, that means that the hopper and the hatch must be removed prior to the person entering the barrel. Wheel chocks that fit around the rollers should be available to the rescue workers. A "spotter" should be assigned to assist the person in the confined space and periodically check on him to make sure that he hasn't been injured. These are all common sense ideas but keeping them in mind could help save a life.

[concretejoe]

I recognize the risks involved in trying to move an injured person. We are required by law to have a safety supervisor in charge of issuing confined space entry permits, individuals trained in working in confined spaces, spotters and people trained in rescue. There aren't any set standards that I can find for extracting a man from a drum. Maybe we as first responding rescuers should not be worried about extraction as much as stabalization until heavy rescue can arrive. However, if there are things that we would need handy to facilitate extraction it would be good to have these things in place. Would it be better to strap them to a backboard and try to slide them through the hatch, pull them up through the hopper or lift them vertically through the hatch with a winch? These are the S.O.P.'s that we are trying to come up with. I guess the question is what is your company's S.O.P. when dealing with an injury that happens while a man is inside a drum?

[cfconcrete]

I don't wanna step on anyone's toes, but I would think a call to 911 is the best way to deal with the situation. Unless your out in East Bumbf#&K where the local firemen are 1 hour away. I couldn't imagine doing anything else, unless a fast go in the barrel, and drag him out by his feet is what your thinking.....
Be safe,

[gant]

I dont know how well a long backboard would go through the hatch.. thats why I recommended the KED its small and it stabilizes the "important" stuf till you can get them on a back board

[concretejoe]

cfconcrete said:

I don't wanna step on anyone's toes,

Please don't. You wouldn't believe the paperwork involved. ;D

cfconcrete said:

but I would think a call to 911 is the best way to deal with the situation. Unless your out in East Bumbf#&K where the local firemen are 1 hour away. I couldn't imagine doing anything else, unless a fast go in the barrel, and drag him out by his feet is what your thinking.....
Be safe,

We are of course going to call 911. What we are trying to figure out is what to do while waiting for their response, and what we need on hand to help after they respond. No offense to our EMT buddies, but response times aren't always the same or within OSHA limits. OSHA says that rescuers should be no more than 4-6 minutes away from the site. So we are going to get some of our guys rescue certified. There is probably a company around my location that does the training and would help us with our S.O.P.'s. I just thought I might try to get a leg up.

[concretejoe]

Thanks gant, I will pass on the idea about the KED. I think that would work inside a drum. I guess we could strap him up and pass him out the hatch to people on the outside.

[cfconcrete]

You know what, I'd bet if you contacted your local firemen, they might set up a training drill or something with your guys involved, I know that alot of the fire depts around here train like that, they love the technical confined space rescue stuff.

[BillyCement]

cfconcrete said:

You know what, I'd bet if you contacted your local firemen, they might set up a training drill or something with your guys involved, I know that alot of the fire depts around here train like that, they love the technical confined space rescue stuff.

You're right. I'm a volunteer firefighter and we try to familiarize ourselves with the local businesses. We do "walk-throughs" in various factories, churches and the senior care center among other places. That way we can get an idea of what's inside and what we might expect to find in the event of a fire. I may contact the fire dept. in the town where our plant is located and suggest that they do that. Good idea.

[cfconcrete]

See every once in awhile I prove my usefullness.........

[concretejoe]

Thanks guys.

[bj3976]

I am a firefighter myself, Today was a slow day and we just happened to be chipping drums. My fire departments long boards will fit if slightly angled to one side, and your victim is a skinny guy! It might work "Might". Your average back board is 1.5 to 2.5 inches thick depending on brand. Not to common in my company to find a little guy. If the victim is awake and talking your best bet is to leave him in there until trained personnel can arrive. If they are not breathing I would then do what you had to do to extricate them quickly so CPR can be performed. Your best bet is work with your local department and have your company buy all the equipment needed. The KED would be your best bet but not all departments have KED's due to their cost and getting them back form the hospitals. My town is one of the only departments in our area that still use the KED but if it was needed prior to the rescue there is a chance that it could be with another patient at the hospital. Here in NH you have to be a trained EMT or first responder to use medical equipment (i.e. Long board, KED, head blocks, C-Collar.) So also check out local state law. It might be different for states that have rescue teams and fire departments that are out side the 4-6 minute response times. Here in New England the average response times are 3-7 minutes for help to arrive. Good luck!

[lkconcrete]

Sounds like all preventative measures should be taken car of before entering the drum so an extraction never has to take place. A lock out of the truck, drum stabilized, GFI's on all cords, ventalation, safety gear, spoter ect.

[db2179]

Our company policey is to never get in the drum at all. If we do see you later.

[lafargeslave]

yep the days of chiping your own drum are over for us. we have crews of minorities that are under cantract and rove between the plants several times a year. you put your truck on the list and hopefully in the morning its good to go. we haul a lot of 10k and 12k psi concrete. most of our sites are no wash out by sales agreement. build up is unaviodable. we will start hauling 16k psi this summer. great 105 degrees and no wash out.

[Mort]

16K psi? I've only ever seen 8, I think. Although the other night I did haul a 5000psi grout. An 11 sack Hi-Early sure was good for the drum. Not as bad as I thought, though.

[lafargeslave]

yah the 16k is supposedly for Trumps towers, 2 50 story condos starting soon. we pour 8,10,12psi colunms/sheer walls every day. we have a nightmare mix of 5000psi, lightwieght (usually unsoaked) HE with polarset. and for some reason the contractors use it for stair cases in the condos so you back up to the loading dock and they wheelbarrow it all over the building. we dont even bother to try and save the load after 2 hours. just let it get so it wont come out of the truck and show the customer the info on the back of the ticket about damages to the truck during delivery are charged to the customer, and that drums full of dried loads are considered damage, then they let you go to the dump. it they would just ship it as 2 or 3 yd loads it would be ok but nope they want 7-9 yds at a time with at best 4 wheelbarrows so they have no hope of getting it off the truck in time.

[concretejoe]

lkconcrete said:

Sounds like all preventative measures should be taken car of before entering the drum so an extraction never has to take place. A lock out of the truck, drum stabilized, GFI's on all cords, ventalation, safety gear, spoter ect.

Even with all the safety measures in place there is always the possibility that an extraction may have to take place. That is why they are called accidents. The goal is to be prepared in the event that one is neccessary.

[concretejoe]

lafargeslave said:

yep the days of chiping your own drum are over for us. we have crews of minorities that are under cantract and rove between the plants several times a year. you put your truck on the list and hopefully in the morning its good to go...

We have made it so that drivers aren't allowed to get in the drums anymore also. However, even if a company contracts the drum chipping out they are still responsible for the safety of those workers. The company needs to have confined space procedures in place. If someone got hurt they would sue not only the company they worked for, but they would sue the company that contracted them out.

[lafargeslave]

that is true that could happen. the assumption is that these crews have shown as part of the contract that they follow the rules but I can tell you that they are working alone with no supervision from us on the night shift. and they do not pull the hatches either, all of them shimmy down the hopper. plus it is a fair bet that other than the business owner, the chippers are probably illegals. our own ex employees have sued the company and lost. I know that when our yard man jack hammers the main drum a few times a week the full entry procedure is not followed. we are a company that prides itself on tons of posters on the wall about safety yet follows none of its own advice. we are driven to make the production numbers. nothing else. I have seen it in other industries as well. survival of the lucky.

[cfconcrete]

We're not allowed to go into drums anymore, back in the day we all chipped on slow or rain days.
I can't even remember the last time I heard of any of our guys chipping out the drums here...
Drive Safe

[concretejoe]

Mar 28, 2008 20:40:27 GMT -5 lafargeslave said:

that is true that could happen. the assumption is that these crews have shown as part of the contract that they follow the rules but I can tell you that they are working alone with no supervision from us on the night shift. and they do not pull the hatches either, all of them shimmy down the hopper. plus it is a fair bet that other than the business owner, the chippers are probably illegals. our own ex employees have sued the company and lost. I know that when our yard man jack hammers the main drum a few times a week the full entry procedure is not followed. we are a company that prides itself on tons of posters on the wall about safety yet follows none of its own advice. we are driven to make the production numbers. nothing else. I have seen it in other industries as well. survival of the lucky.

Your company should watch a film called "Remember Charlie". It's a talk given by a man named, you guessed it, Charlie. He worked at Exxon and managed to blow himself and half the refinery up. All because he was interested in production and getting his job done and ignored all the safety procedures. It will happen. Maybe not today or tommorrow, but it will happen. Posters are great, but unless someone takes the time to read them and put them into practice they may as well be wall paper. What do the rest of the guys you work with think about safety? Has your company ever had an OSHA inspection? When someone dies the company will wish it had paid more attention. The sad part is that it will be their pocketbook they will be morning and not the loss of life.

[cfconcrete]

From what I hear, Lafarge is such a big ass company the payoff of a lawsuit & fines probably wouldn't even hurt their big, fat, bloated wallet.
The posters & safety movies are like insurance to them, so they can say, "See, we preach safety to the guys, they just don't follow the rules" They they can blame it right on you guys.
Just my own opinion.
Drive Safe

[concretejoe]

Apr 8, 2008 19:41:38 GMT -5 cfconcrete said:

From what I hear, Lafarge is such a big ass company the payoff of a lawsuit & fines probably wouldn't even hurt their big, fat, bloated wallet.
The posters & safety movies are like insurance to them, so they can say, "See, we preach safety to the guys, they just don't follow the rules" They they can blame it right on you guys.
Just my own opinion.
Drive Safe

Well, it is your problem if the tools and means to be safe are there yet you do not use them. I would have a problem though with a company that preached safety yet didn't foster an environment that allowed people to be safe. Being safeis being efficient. You can't be very productive sitting at home on workers comp.

[cfconcrete]

Now wait a minute, no one here is talking about employees not following rules
& safety procedures, no one comes into work looking to break the rules and/or
get injured, it all boils down to these companies plastering your pretty posters
and safety rules in the lunch room, but God freaking forbid one of the guys has
a safety beef, or a safety concern and the management tells you to
"get in the truck and run the load, or else" and if your not union protected,
you have NO WHERE to turn to. It's all about the yards out of the plant and profit,
and be damned if a screwball driver with a beef about some safety issue gets in the way.
I know my company (internationally owned) and some others are not concerned about
an OSHA fine or a lawsuit. If you work for a small outfit, good for you, but they big boys,
well here's where your line "didn't foster an environment that allowed people to be safe" fits like a glove.
THATS what I mean. And if management from my place is lurking on here, now you know why the morale is so low,
And I'm not afraid to blow the whistle,
I drive 379 at the River Street plant.
Drive safe men, OR ELSE.

[concretejoe]

Apr 15, 2008 19:58:35 GMT -5 cfconcrete said:

Now wait a minute, no one here is talking about employees not following rules
& safety procedures, no one comes into work looking to break the rules and/or
get injured, it all boils down to these companies plastering your pretty posters
and safety rules in the lunch room, but God freaking forbid one of the guys has
a safety beef, or a safety concern and the management tells you to
"get in the truck and run the load, or else" and if your not union protected,
you have NO WHERE to turn to. It's all about the yards out of the plant and profit,
and be damned if a screwball driver with a beef about some safety issue gets in the way.
I know my company (internationally owned) and some others are not concerned about
an OSHA fine or a lawsuit. If you work for a small outfit, good for you, but they big boys,
well here's where your line "didn't foster an environment that allowed people to be safe" fits like a glove.
THATS what I mean. And if management from my place is lurking on here, now you know why the morale is so low,
And I'm not afraid to blow the whistle,
I drive 379 at the River Street plant.
Drive safe men, OR ELSE.

They will be concerned with a wrongful death lawsuit. My advice is blow, baby, blow. Management needs to learn that being safe is being productive. Employees need to learn that they have a right to be safe. Also they are not my posters. I'm a driver like you. I just happen to be on a commitee at my place of work that concerns itself with trying to make sure we have a safe place to do our job.

[cfconcrete]

I applaud you for being on the safety committee and at least trying.
Drive Safe Men....

[chads]

If the situation is bad enough just grab the smoke wrench and make the hole bigger. Cool it off with water and let the ems take care of him/her. Better to destroy a hunk of exspensive metal than let someone die!

[concretejoe]

Apr 18, 2008 18:37:50 GMT -5 cfconcrete said:

I applaud you for being on the safety committee and at least trying.
Drive Safe Men....

Thanks. I honestly believe that my company is concerned for my safety. At least they are making the effort, KWIM?